John: Eric, have you ever thought about what you did when you went about choosing a God? You went God shopping! You went looking for a God who met with your approval! One who suited every aspect of your personality.
"God shopping, isn't that what we all do? I mean what made you not choose the God of the Muslims? What traits made that particular god distasteful to you? And no God suits every aspect of my personality. I guess that's why I have many instead of one including yours. I pray to your God to protect the Christians and Jews here and abroad. But in all, I can never have a God that has every aspect of my personality. There's more about the personality of a God, any God that no human can never have. There are those who believe they do, however, and one of them is leading this country. But they become evil creatures so self-centered and full of rage, corrupted by their own megalomania."
John: In other words, what you really did - was set yourself up as a God of gods and demanded that all God applicants meet your criteria.
"So, doesn't Yahweh meet your criteria? I must admit that I'm confused by the idea considering there has to be some criteria and some level of choosing between, within the confines of the great organized religions of today, the God of the Muslims, the godlessness of atheism and the worship of a philosopher figure of Buddhism. There was obviously a set of criteria already in mind that made you choose Yahweh over Allah. Perhaps, I need some clarification here on this part."
John: But think about it for a minute. If there is indeed a real God out there - what are the chances he would actually meet with our full approval? What are the chances that given the fact that he would know EVERYTHING about everything, and that he would see all of existence from beginning to end - what are the chances that he just might have a slightly different way of looking at things than we do?
"As I touched upon before, that the reason I have many Gods is due to the fact that each one has a different perspective. I think what each one has to say, in their infinite wisdom, should be appreciated by mundane minds such as ours. Can we really grasp their reality? Of course not. We're not god-minds, but human beings. 100 of our years could be counted as a second to them. So, of course they'd have a different view on things."
John: In our own human lives - look at the huge difference between a 50-year-old and a 5-year-old. There are huge differences in the way they see things and the way they think - and those large differences are based on just the difference in knowledge gained over 45 years! Imagine how different the perspective would be when one of the parties has the knowledge of eternity.
"Precisely. I haven't much to argue on this point."
John: If you were the God who created everything - wouldn't you kind of laugh at people who expect you to meet THEIR approval? Wouldn't you more than likely expect them to seek YOUR approval?
"I'm always seeking THEIR approval that's why I live by the codes laid out in Asatru. What is a man if he is without some moral code in his life? Why would the Gods look favorably on you if you can't live by the codes set down by them? If you can't show loyalty to their laws then how can you show loyalty to the Gods? It's just like your 10 Commandments. Those are Yahwehs Laws and they should be obeyed by His followers or else what's the point? You know what I mean? How is Yahwehs followers being faithful to Him if they can't live by His rules? So, it's not a matter of me having them meet my approval. How dare I ever to ask a God of that? That's just lunacy and that's more or less a Marxist demand. It's always us, the faithful to our respective religions, seeking their approval."
John: It would seem rational that a real God - would not have the same perspective as man-made gods. Therefore it would seem that a god that appears perfectly rational to us - must have been made up by us - and therefore not real god - but a creation of human minds.
"To be perfectly honest, no God makes any sense to me. I can read and re-read every story about every God and not once I can I say, "Wow, they make sense." They don't, but that's to be expected by God-minds that are vastly superior to ours. Humans do not make sense to ants or even our pet dogs. It's not because they are dumb, but because of the advancement of our minds."
John: A real God would have to be significantly different from us and have thoughts and views vastly different from our own.
"I couldn't agree more."
John: So I would submit to you that if you find yourself in a lot of agreement with any of the many gods out there, if you don't find anything majorly objectionable - that you should see that as a warning sign - that this god just may be a creation of man's imagination.
"There's always something objectionable the Gods do. Zeus and His philandering with human women, Yahweh smiting whole cities, Odin being sneaky and disguising Himself just to hear what humans are saying. Now, because I'm curious, what objectionable things do you find about Yahweh? I think what you posited here is very interesting and is something I've never heard ANY theist state before."
My first question is, is 'John' an acceptable moniker for/by Jonathan? I got my head bitten off for slipping and calling a James by 'Jim' hereabouts. I had just gotten off the phone with my brother-in-law who we call, Jim. People get real touchy about their names. If Jonathan's friends call him John, I'd like his permission to be a friend. If he prefers Jonathan, I will continue to use it. ◄Dave►
I am unclear at what point the notion of monotheism was introduced among the followers of the GOD of Moses, which is now the God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims; but any fair reading of the Old Testament would conclude that Moses himself certainly believed in the existence of other gods, and thought the best one had chosen him and his people. At least, that is what he reported. To my knowledge, this is the only god that now purportedly denies the existence of other gods.
Jonathan, your whole premise here is that there is only one 'true' god, and with that bias, you presume that all others are 'fake.' What evidence do you have for this assertion? ◄Dave►
ThoughtsAloud ◄Dave► said:
I am unclear at what point the notion of monotheism was introduced among the followers of the GOD of Moses, which is now the God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims; but any fair reading of the Old Testament would conclude that Moses himself certainly believed in the existence of other gods, and thought the best one had chosen him and his people. At least, that is what he reported. To my knowledge, this is the only god that now purportedly denies the existence of other gods.
Jonathan, your whole premise here is that there is only one 'true' god, and with that bias, you presume that all others are 'fake.' What evidence do you have for this assertion? ◄Dave►
Here is where much of your problem (and most of atheism) lies: you continually misrepresent (ignorantly so) what it is that Christianity believes, along with many other religions. For example, you state that you are "unclear at what point the notion of monotheism was introduced among the followers of the God of Moses, which is now the God of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims."
But the fact is, most people of each of the above named religions will tell you that while it is the same God, it is not the same God. It's a shame that you probably won't understand that, but it just further illustrates your ignorance on this subject.
You further expose your ignorance because you try to lay claim that the Bible states unequivocally that Moses believed that there were other gods. But that is the furthest thing from the truth. The Bible only "acknowledges" other gods as a means of juxtaposing false ideologies against the one true Ideology which the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was relating through His words and actions and commands to His people.
Doug Walters said:
"That is the heavenly hosts. They are not gods. See Genesis 3:22, 11:7 : Isa 6:8 !Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8; Jer 23:18."
Call them what you will, Doug, Army of the Lord, Archangels, Angels, Cherubim, Fallen Angels, Serpents, Devil and his army... whatever. They reportedly have supernatural powers, can appear on earth disguised as humans, perform miracles, etc. and already existed in your God's community, before He/they created the world. Reading the entire Bible, one gets the distinct impression that the eternal heavenly battle between your God and your Devil, with their attendant armies, had been going on for eons before Genesis. From my viewpoint, at the very least, the Devil is another Christian god. One could also speculate that they created the Earth as just another battlefield, for their eternal struggle for the top post. ;-) ◄Dave►
