[This was posted in a separate thread. This is an excellent response to the crux of this issue, and I cannot say it any better than Roy did.]
Roy Hartzler The word choice or election is a big word and has different uses. It is not always used as a salvation word. In the choosing of the 12 by the Lord Himself, one of them, Judas was not saved. "Have not I chosen you 12 and one of you is a devil?" God chose the Jewish people as a nation (Deut. 4:37; 10:15; 14:2). There is a sense in which they are the chosen of God as physical descendants of Abraham. Having said that, in the NT epistles, elect does come to be a salvation word and I would understand elect Israel to be believing Israel (Romans 2:28,29). There are elect indiviual Jews even today (Romans 11:25). But these people who God has set aside because of their unbelief and until the times of the Gentiles be come in, God will graft them in again (11:20-26). He will bring them back to their own land Jeremiah 23:3-8). And at His Second Coming, "all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26-29; Compare Hosea 1:3-9 with 1:10,11 and 2:21-23; Ezekial 36:22-28; Jer. 31:31-36).
Habib Khoury said:
Roy, you are speaking of the future, not the present. Please answer me about the present: Is the Christ-rejecting Jew one of God's chosen people, and why do you think so?
Nathan, Jonathan, Lesli K., and Dr. Khoury, this is my response to your questions regarding what you thought was my inappropriate response earlier in this thread. Dr. Khoury, I read only one article on the website you referenced. After reading that one article, I could see your line of reasoning. Nothing here on FreedomTorch has convinced me that the other articles would be any different than the one I read, "A Biblical Interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant." Copied below are the first two paragraphs of that article, and my responses are in purple. I'm springing off Nathan's post with 3 questions: 1) "muddied the doctrinal waters here"; 2) "his assertions are extra-Biblical"; and 3) "a lot of semantic contortions". Only a tortured reading of scripture would produce the beliefs expressed in these two paragraphs.
The Lord God saw that Abraham’s remarkable obedience to Him was a true evidence of Abraham’s great faith in God. [True] Therefore, He promised Father Abraham that from his loins will come the Savior of the world promised to the First Parents (Genesis 3:15), the Blessed Lord Jesus Christ. [Extra-Biblical, not true. God promised Abraham his seed would be as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the shore. Gen. 22:15-18; Gen. 13:16] The in-Virgin-conceived Redeemer will be the Seed of Abraham, [Yes, a seed, but not the only seed.] and His faithful followers from all the tribes of the earth, generations at length, will be known forever as the Children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7) and the Children of God simultaneously (John 1:12-13). [I do not consider myself a child of Abraham--I am a child of God. I've been adopted into the family by God my Father. I am a child of God (just like Abraham), and joint heir with Jesus.]
The Lord Jesus Christ is the blessing par excellence for all the families of the earth. [Not supported by Scripture, you are confusing two different doctrines. Abraham, by God's promise, is how all families of the earth are blessed. Jesus is how all believers are blessed.] He is King forever and His Kingdom on earth, both spiritual and physical, will continue without end. [Not exactly. The OT Prophets tell us Jesus’ kingdom will have no end, but it does not say the Earthly kingdom will have no end. The Revelation says that Jesus’ Millennial reign is 1,000 years. After that the Earth will pass away, and Jesus and the Redeemed will inhabit “a new heaven and a new earth.” Rev. 21] His believers will rule with Him (Revelation 20:4) [actually, it is Rev. 20:6] and will inherit all the marvelous promises of the Abrahamic Covenant. [No! The referenced text does NOT say that believers will inherit the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant. This is extra-Biblical conjecture.] Blessed is the Name of the Lord Jesus, and let us exalt His Name together!
Tell me, Dr. Khoury, how do YOU interpret the verses that say Abraham's seed will be as numerous as the stars, sand, and dust? What NON-JEWISH interpretation would you give them?
Gen. 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Gen. 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
Gen. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen. 22:17-18 17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Habib Khoury said:
Roy, thank you for asking. For one example, see Gen. 26:4 in the KJV & NKJV Without the light of the New Testament often people find themselves adopting a Jewish interpretation. This is the error some here and elsewhere have fallen into --- they attempt to interpret the Abrahamic Covenant without the light provided in the New Testament.
Roy Hartzler said:
Genesis 26:4 is another passage where the singular seed has a pluralistic meaning. Notice in both of these passages, he is talking about a land. And it seems to me, we can't just dismiss these OT promises as a Jewish interpretation because Christ Himself had a very high view of the OT. Matthew 5:18 - "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." And in Luke 24:25, "And He said to them, "O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!" Notice the word "all" in both verses: "...from the law until all is accomplished" and "slow of heart to believe all that the prohets have spoken." And He definitely in Luke 24:27 considers Moses to be one of those prophets.MY RESPONSE: Roy, you have misrepresented what I said. I said we are to reject the Jewish INTERPRETATION that contradicts the New Testament interpretation of these verses. I never thought that the word "seed" is a collective noun, nor does the New Testament. Paul emphasized that it is in the singular form and that it does not refer to the physical descendents of Abraham. I take his word over yours, every time. (Did you say you believe that the writings of Paul are infallible? How come you reject his interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant? Are you a Christian or a Jew?)
YOUR WORDS: And Jeremiah, who was surely one of those prophets gives some pretty definite promises about Israel continuing to be a nation. Try Jer. 31:35-37 where he ties the surety of His promise to the sun, moon, and stars: " Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36"If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD." Try also Jer. 33:14-26 for very definite promises about David's throne and the Levitical priesthood as being as sure as day and night. Jer. 33:17-21: For thus says the LORD, 'David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; 18and the Levitical priests shall never lack a man before Me to offer burnt offerings, to burn grain offerings and to prepare sacrifices continually.'" 19The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying, 20"Thus says the LORD, 'If you can break My covenant for the day and My covenant for the night, so that day and night will not be at their appointed time, 21then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant so that he will not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levitical priests, My ministers. Either God has a serious character flaw when it comes to honesty and Christ who made the Luke 24:25 statement after dying on the cross about believing "all that the prohets have spoken" doesn't know what He is talking about, or I have to believe that God is going to keep His promises.
MY RESPONSE: Had you read at least some of my articles you would have found how much the New Testament interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant differs from yours. When the Lord God speaks on a topic, I adopt that as my viewpoint. Apparently, this is not the case with you. You think the Orthodox Jew has a better interpretation than God does. To this I will never agree.
Mary Ann Hartzler said:
Nathan, Jonathan, Lesli K., and Dr. Khoury, this is my response to your questions regarding what you thought was my inappropriate response earlier in this thread. Dr. Khoury, I read only one article on the website you referenced. After reading that one article, I could see your line of reasoning. Nothing here on FreedomTorch has convinced me that the other articles would be any different than the one I read, "A Biblical Interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant." Copied below are the first two paragraphs of that article, and my responses are in purple. I'm springing off Nathan's post with 3 questions: 1) "muddied the doctrinal waters here"; 2) "his assertions are extra-Biblical"; and 3) "a lot of semantic contortions". Only a tortured reading of scripture would produce the beliefs expressed in these two paragraphs.
The Lord God saw that Abraham’s remarkable obedience to Him was a true evidence of Abraham’s great faith in God. [True] Therefore, He promised Father Abraham that from his loins will come the Savior of the world promised to the First Parents (Genesis 3:15), the Blessed Lord Jesus Christ. [Extra-Biblical, not true. God promised Abraham his seed would be as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the shore. Gen. 22:15-18; Gen. 13:16]
MY RESPONSE: No, this is thoroughly Biblical. Paul said that Abraham had only one seed, not many, and that seed is the Lord Jesus Christ. Your comment is antibiblical. You, knowingly and deliberately, reject what the New Testament says on the subject.
The in-Virgin-conceived Redeemer will be the Seed of Abraham, [Yes, a seed, but not the only seed.] and His faithful followers from all the tribes of the earth, generations at length, will be known forever as the Children of Abraham (Galatians 3:7) and the Children of God simultaneously (John 1:12-13). [I do not consider myself a child of Abraham--I am a child of God. I've been adopted into the family by God my Father. I am a child of God (just like Abraham), and joint heir with Jesus.]
MY RESPONSE: Again, you reject what Galatians 3:7 says. This is an antibiblical position. One seed: “Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as referring to many, but rather to one, ‘And to your seed,’ that is, Christ.” (Galatians 3:16). All believers in Christ are children of Abraham: “Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.” (Galatians 3:7). “And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:29).
The Lord Jesus Christ is the blessing par excellence for all the families of the earth. [Not supported by Scripture, you are confusing two different doctrines. Abraham, by God's promise, is how all families of the earth are blessed. Jesus is how all believers are blessed.]MY RESPONSE: Again, you are rejecting what the New Testament says: The Lord Jesus, the Seed of Abraham, is the Savior of the world, which includes all the families of the earth. Were it not for the Lord Jesus, no man, no nation, and no race can be a blessing to all the families of the earth: “in your seed [the Lord Jesus Christ] all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.” (Genesis 26:4; cf. 12:3; 22:18). History supports this statement.
He is King forever and His Kingdom on earth, both spiritual and physical, will continue without end. [Not exactly. The OT Prophets tell us Jesus’ kingdom will have no end, but it does not say the Earthly kingdom will have no end. The Revelation says that Jesus’ Millennial reign is 1,000 years. After that the Earth will pass away, and Jesus and the Redeemed will inhabit “a new heaven and a new earth.” Rev. 21]
MY RESPONSE: You just said it is not forever, then you said it is forever. It sounds like some politicians I heard of. Neither Abraham nor his physical descendants ever possessed all the land of Canaan. While Lebanon is part of the geographical land of Canaan promised by the Lord God to Father Abraham and his descendants, Ancient Israel NEVER included Lebanon. Thus, the popular claim (misinterpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant) that this promise to Father Abraham calls unconditionally for a Jewish State, cannot free itself from the heretical stigma of attributing failure to the Lord God. Likewise is the case with those who deny the future one-thousand-year reign of Christ on earth. On the other side, the New Testament interpretation asserting that this promise will be fulfilled in a Christian Theocratic State, in the upcoming Millennium, asserts God’s promise to Father Abraham as precious and unfailing.
His believers will rule with Him (Revelation 20:4) [actually, it is Rev. 20:6] and will inherit all the marvelous promises of the Abrahamic Covenant.
MY RESPONSE: here is Rev. 20:4 --- "4Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." With this and other statements you made here and earlier, we must suspect that you may have a Bible different than the Bibles we know.
[No! The referenced text does NOT say that believers will inherit the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant. This is extra-Biblical conjecture.] Blessed is the Name of the Lord Jesus, and let us exalt His Name together!
MY RESPONSE: Again, you are rejecting what the New Testament says on the subject: “And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.” (Galatians 3:29).
YOUR WORDS: Tell me, Dr. Khoury, how do YOU interpret the verses that say Abraham's seed will be as numerous as the stars, sand, and dust? What NON-JEWISH interpretation would you give them? Gen. 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Gen. 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen. 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 22:17-18 17That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
MY RESPONSE: If the descendents of Abraham are the Jewish Race, they fall quite short from being this numerous, and the promise would be broken. But if the descendents of Abraham are the believers in Christ of all nations and of all centuries, then the promise is fulfilled. Great is the faithfulness of God!
Habib Khoury said:
Roy, thank you for asking. For one example, see Gen. 26:4 in the KJV & NKJV Without the light of the New Testament often people find themselves adopting a Jewish interpretation. This is the error some here and elsewhere have fallen into --- they attempt to interpret the Abrahamic Covenant without the light provided in the New Testament.
Roy Hartzler said:
Did you say you believe that the writings of Paul are infallible? How come you reject his interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant? Are you a Christian or a Jew?) I don't. But neither will I read into them more than he said. Are you telling me that Paul thought Moses was wrong in Genesis 13:16 and 26:4?
MY RESPONSE: No, I am telling you that your interpretation of what Moses said contradicts Paul's interpretation, and that I accept his interpretation over yours EVERY TIME.
Roy Hartzler said:
But I didn't interpret, I just read. It says right in the text of Genesis 13:16, "if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered."
MY RESPONSE: Yes, you did interpret, implying that this means the physical descendents of Abraham, the Jews (which has been your position all along). But Paul said these are the people of all nationalities that share the faith of Abraham.
Just for grins, I'll concede to your semantics on Gal. 3:7. Through Christ, I am a descendant of Abraham.
Dr. Khoury, are you saying that Paul was re-writing the Old Testament when he wrote Gal. 3:16? This isn't fact, but just my opinion...it looks to me as though Paul is quoting an Old Testament passage, but there isn't enough of it there to tell which one. God clearly tells Abraham on more than one occasion that his "seed" will be numerous. However, of the coming Messiah, God (through the prophets) clearly said there would be only ONE. It is my humble opinion that Paul's attempt to distinguish singular and plural in Gal. 16 deals more with Christ the Messiah than re-writing Old Testament scripture. There is only ONE WAY to God, and that is through Jesus Christ, His Son. The Hebrew language in Genesis is very specific, and the translations of those verses are not an error--nor are they interpretation errors. Perhaps they are reading errors on your part?
Dr. Khoury said: MY RESPONSE: If the descendents of Abraham are the Jewish Race, they fall quite short from being this numerous, and the promise would be broken. But if the descendents of Abraham are the believers in Christ of all nations and of all centuries, then the promise is fulfilled. Great is the faithfulness of God!
As for your problem with Christ-rejecting Jews, what do you do with Ezekiel 36? 32"I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord GOD, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!" 33'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt. 34"The desolate land will be cultivated instead of being a desolation in the sight of everyone who passes by. 35"They will say, 'This desolate land has become like the garden of Eden; and the waste, desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited.' 36"Then the nations that are left round about you will know that I, the LORD, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted that which was desolate; I, the LORD, have spoken and will do it."
