Did Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink? ... moreDid Muslim Brotherhood Learn ‘Day of Rage’ Egypt Protest Tactics From Obama Allies Bill Ayers and Code Pink?
Oleg A. said:
Times like these also reveal the line separating liberty from tyranny, which runs across all nations, but often remains buried under the mundane and the superficial.
Oleg, it's so good to have your perspective here. Just to let everyone know, Oleg grew up in the Soviet Union and came to New York only to realize there were a lot of similarities! So he's spent his time since fighting tyranny.
I think your quote above is profound and perfectly sums all this up.
John Dummett said:
We are going to make the same mistake we did with the Shaw of Iran. This will completely surround Israel and the whole world will risk incineration. If the Muslim Brotherhood succeeds in taking over ever US friendly nation in the area we in America can rest assured that our nations supply of oil is going to dry up fast.
I think you're jumping to conclusions pretty fast there John...
NO ONE knows how this is going to play out...and if what you mean by us 'making the same mistake' means that we should by reflex support some autocrat in a far away country because he's 'good for our side' while tossing offhand what he may be doing to his own people, then it's no wonder a certain subset of people in far off lands hate us. We're not to only people on the planet that get the right of determination as to what kind of government we surround ourselves with.
You may be correct...this might be a fundamentalist islam overthrow that might present grave problems to us, and to many...but it might be a bunch of people that just want a more representative government.
This is what happens when the US Government artificially intervenes in ANYTHING...markets, foreign governments etc...it really doesn't matter. All you do is make more enemies, and get considered 'arrogant'...not that we shouldn't be arrogant, but we should be arrogant in our ideals and leadership actions, not arrogant in buying friends who are in effect dictators or autocrats just because we want it that way.
How can we sit here and bemoan our loss of liberty as Americans, and then influence the exact same thing on another nation by financially supporting what would be considered, by many standards, an oppressive regime in Egypt (or anywhere else for that matter). Maybe the Egyptians see a Democratic Iraq and want that for themselves?
It's no wonder our founders wanted no foreign entanglements, only foreign trade. They saw this play out in their time too.
Lori Williams said:
Jonathan, you are sooo spot on! Better the devil you know. Mubrak will be overthrown, extremist will take over and we will have a BIG mess on our hands. Yes, this is biblical. The worst IS yet to come. Cris, I didn't vote for this filth in 2008. I voted for the other filth, better the devil you know.
Voting for the devil you know is on thing...at least you can vote and even try to influence the process.
It is an entirely different thing to impose American will on a foreign nation out of an interest in whatever expedience you might think it provides.
Does everyone here supporting Mubarak want to send troops and equiptment to help the present Egyptian government? Really?
This needs to play out.
Oleg A. said:
Revolutions sometimes have unpredictable outcomes. In Russia, the democratic forces deposed the Czar in February 1917 and established a transitional government - but it existed for only eight months before it was overthrown by the Bolsheviks in October. The Western powers, including the USA, sent their military to intervene, but soon withdrew after they were confronted by their own domestic leftists, including the unions. As absurdly as it sounds, Islamists now have a substantial presence in the West too, and are gaining enough clout to influence their host body politic. We live in interesting times - a weird mix of contradictory trends. I wonder how much of an effect the Bush doctrine and regime change in Iraq are having on today's popular uprisings in the Arab world - and to what extent the recent riots in Greece have been an inspiration and a model, however different their goals may be. Times like these also reveal the line separating liberty from tyranny, which runs across all nations, but often remains buried under the mundane and the superficial.
Thanks Oleg...for the well reasoned and explained input, and the most rational thing I've read in this thread.
Lori Williams said:
Have you forgotten that Isreal is ALSO our ally? BO dosen't treat them as they are. If an extremist government gets in, and believe me it will, Isreal has NO ally but supposedly us. So, in answer to your question, I don't want a war by any means but, I certainly don't want Isreal to go unprotected. I'm not a risk taker on that. Not a fan of Mubarak but, I still stand by better the devil you know. Oh and no America has no right to instill our "values" on anyone so, I guess Egypt should give back the 5 billion. Wouldn't want to step on any toes.
I haven't forgotten a thing, and I am pro-Israel. But short of sending in troops to protect Mubarak, which would be insane, what exactly do you want the US to do? And, no one said anything about not protecting Israel if it came to that, though I'd be interested to see what Barack would do.
What I cannot comprehend are Conservative Americans who think that for some God given reason we are the ONLY people that have self-determination in government...and then seemingly cannot comprehend why some people in other nations are resentful when our government actively supports their oppression. Now, this is not to start a WMD discussion, but why did we go into Iraq anyway? If once that democracy or republic was established, did we not hope that other's would follow? No?
I find it hard to agree with people that selectively pick and choose what tenet's of the founders to enforce, and which to ignore...teh whole foreign policy structure of this country has been screwed up for so long, I'm surprised that it's taken this long for these problems to arise. You can't always pick the winners and losers, and you cannot buy off everyone all the time..and short of sending troops and gear into Egypt to prop up Mubarak, we don't have much influence in the situation right now.
Nathan Bickel said:
Ray -- Re: Your 7:PM posting: You are correct in saying that it needs to "play out." And, I say, without BO'S community organizing interference and / or foreign "aid" stimulus funds.... It is a far stretch of the imagination to think that the US is genuinely going to change the Arab and Muslim cultures which are so intertwined. Let them dispose of themselves rather than American bodies. After all, the Hebrew O.T. Scripture, tells us that that is their very wild jackass, nature.........
I agree Nathan, it should play out without our interference at this point...and then we do what is our God-given obligation to do in the aftermath.
Janet Meek said:
I think Obama is in support of this Muslim Brotherhood and wants them to take over.
May very well be Janet...but we elected him, and then we need to hold him accountable and change our ways and deal with it.
But, as Nathan said, and I agree with, we cannot change the culture of a people that has been ingrained for centuries. And the Middle East/Africa has never really been particularly stable.
But I do hope...because, the times they are a'changin...there is so much more information out there these days...maybe the Egyptians want a crack at representative government too? Who are we to say no...