February 20, 2011 1:55:23 PM EST
Jonathan, like I tell my mother, my temper is the major thing I need God's help with. What can you expect from an Italian/Irish LI girl? lol
February 20, 2011 2:00:57 PM EST
Jonathan,well said. It is not my place to judge others' beliefs. I can share mine, but Christianity is not about anger and rage. It's about reconciliation with God through the death and resurrection of His Son. Reconciliation is about a relationship that was broken because of my sin and repaired by the cross and resurrection . Jesus is my Lord and Savior.
I do fine it interesting when people pray to Mary. Don't talk to me if you want something from my son. He's an adult. Ask him.
February 20, 2011 2:07:29 PM EST
Well I must say this has turned out better than most of the other forums/sites that discuss bible topics. It would appear Jonathon that Freedom Torch while having passionate people they to me show more maturity than other sites/forums members. Linda by being woman enough to apologise exemplifies that. I know I used to be tough on people I thought were wrong until I learned some of the things I was calling truth were not truth that I had really searched/studied and found but had took some preachers word for. Now before I ever proclaim something true I have done extensive homework. Unfortunately being human all that does is assure me. I cannot demand others believe what I do. I can only give my reasons and then move on. That is seed planting and it is up to God to water if I have planted a good /true seed. In closing I am glad to see mature Christians work through their differences and come out knowing we are all at least trying to find the truth. Believe me these spats will be nothing when we consider the poor souls who did not care enough to even search. I will also say I have learned to not get offended so easy because often a little time and more communication will turn what I thought would be an enemy into a friend. I think we may have seen a little of that here. May God help all of us find the truth we seek and allow us to serve him righteously. I hope I did not ramble here and people understand what I am saying. ( :
February 20, 2011 2:10:25 PM EST
Where is the "Like" button!!?/ I want to Like Linda's, Diana's and Scott's comments here!
February 20, 2011 2:10:43 PM EST
Scott, you said it well. :)
February 20, 2011 2:14:31 PM EST
Jonathan, ask our czar. lol I guess we may just have to state it like you did. How 'bout that?
February 20, 2011 2:17:50 PM EST
How refreshing to read through this. I think it's good for believers to discuss differences, but it's really sad when it degenerates into name calling. Remember our Lord's prayer:
..."that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one. I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:21-23
February 20, 2011 2:20:13 PM EST
In short and at the risk of getting back in trouble I'll give this a try if your genuinly interested in knowing. If no just ignore this.
Praying the Hail Mary is not "worshiping" Mary. It is asking that she join in prayer to the lord for our salvation. Much the same as many of us ask others to pray for us. This is quite evident by the quite simple words of the prayer. To take the words "Hail Mary" and say it worships here really isn't correct. You have to take the rest of the sentence. "Hail Mary full of grace, the lord is with you". That is only recognition that she has achieved eternity in the presence of God.
Now if you want to take the position that she's dead and can't hear us? I don't know where to take you on that except that we believe that there is eternal life with the lord, and she is one of the luckey ones so far.
February 20, 2011 2:23:10 PM EST
Wow a lot can happen when your typing. Yes it's ending better than I expected.
February 20, 2011 2:26:30 PM EST
Chris, what also didn't help is that on FB anytime I encountered a Catholic, they immediately started using profanity and calling everyone else whores and other names and would end up having to be blocked. So I was a little touchy there too
February 20, 2011 2:26:33 PM EST
Chris, the Scriptures say that in heaven, there are no tears and no sadness, so I believe that means that they (the dead who are in heaven) can't see or hear what is happening here on earth (or they would be crying and upset at the events we go through)...so I don't believe that the dead in heaven can hear our prayers - and that would include Mary or the Saints. Jesus is our ONLY mediator/intercessor.
February 20, 2011 2:28:26 PM EST
Chris... I believe that Mary was a human like any other human (unlike Jesus who was fully God and fully human). Therefore you wouldn't pray to her anymore than you would pray to your dear old dead great, great grandmother. The Bible says Mary indeed has a special place, but nowhere does anyone in the Bible ever pray to her - or even give her much attention outside of the four Gospel accounts of Jesus' life.
She's not given any attention in Paul's epistles - where he basically lays out Christian doctrine and theology. There's not a single example of any Christian ever praying to her in the Bible. So, we believe that this Catholic teaching is extra-Biblical, and therefore we believe it's actually a dangerous thing spiritually because it takes people's total reliance off of Jesus and puts some of it onto someone else. (which is why people tend to get SO upset by it).
February 20, 2011 2:30:45 PM EST
And Jonathan, don't forget that even Jesus taught she was no more special than any other Christian.
February 20, 2011 2:31:46 PM EST
And Dawn I don't expect you to believe anything else. I'm only trying to shed a little light on the belief that worshiping Mary is not really a part of my catholic faith. Now that's not to say that particularly in Hispanic Catholacism that some don't take Mary much more seriously. I'm not one to say what they believe.
Linda Many here know me well. I NEVER call anyone names. Particularly ones like that.
February 20, 2011 2:35:03 PM EST
I think that what is important in this discussion is that we have common ground. I have learned from Chris and from all of you for sharing your beliefs. Thank you for a powerful lesson in tolerance and forgiveness.
February 20, 2011 2:43:23 PM EST
Yes indeed Julie, and I'm going to bow out here leaving one thought. Look not so closely for the differences that you can't see similarities.
February 20, 2011 2:43:56 PM EST
The only thing I would add is that there are what I would call, Mary cults, ie, people who, by any reasonable description, "worship" Mary.
When we were Catholic my Mom had a good friend who would travel to Medjugorge and other places to worship Mary, hoping to catch a glimpse of her animating a statue. I believe the apparitions are real and attested to by thousands of people. The messages these apparitions give are profoundly anti-biblical, and do ask to be worshiped. They are not of God.
It's my prediction that the next doctrinal up-date out of Rome will be that Mary is co-redemptrix, (co-redeemer) along with Jesus. Many Catholics believe this already, even the last pope, JP II, who credited Mary for sparing his life when he was shot.
February 20, 2011 2:46:01 PM EST
Chris, i just go by what the Scripture says...nothing added to it, nothing taken away. If God's Word says this, then there is nothing else to believe BUT this.