Time exist onty to mortals. 1st John 1:5
Keith, there are many points upon which any of us may agree or disagree. I also am not here to convert. I simply want to say thank you for picking up on Diana's reference to time being different in heaven and on earth. We are mortals and truth rests with an infinite and eternal God.
Keith for that to happen, the definition of creationism has to make a 180. It's the fallacy of creationism that keeps what you want from happening.
It is my hope that one day Christians understand that the scientific, true representation of nature and its origins in no way compromises God's position as its creator, that the eons of time and the evolutionary process do not threat God's existence but rather validate it, and stop fighting against what they do not understand.
As I stated earlier some day creation and evolution will compliment each other 100%. Right now they dont. God's wisdom is far to advanced to understand. What we understand now can be put on the head of a needle compared to the vastness of the universe. We would have to be gods/goddesses ourselves to understand all things. I don't know about you but I am far from that.
God is eternal. No beginning and no end. Alpha and Omega. Yes creationism has a beginning and an end. So does evolution. When this world ends why not create another one. God is all powerful. He is in control.
This will blow your minds: How many worlds have been created, are now created and will yet be created? Worlds without numbers. Count all the grains of sand there are at the oceans. There are more created. Thats why we cannot comprehend God's power and mind and wisdom. You'll go nuts trying to figure it out.
Jonathan, that is the very question that allows me to reconcile creationism with evolution. I try and keep away from theological topics here. At the risk of getting banned as the "crazy Catholic" I'm going to take a stab.
Time is not a concept of God, it is a concept of man. Man can not organize a thought without the concept of time. Without it nothing has ever happened, and never will. Three days ago Scott Brown got elected. We know that, but without time maybe he hasn't. Maybe that happened tomorrow, or next year. So time is simply an organizational tool of man. No other creature on earth uses the concept of time. They have behavior thru instinct triggered by conditions that we assign time to, but their awareness is now. That being said since the concept is of man alone it can't help but be flawed or incomplete.
The Bible is to me a book of lessons, written by mans memory of the teachings of God many years ago. When someone tells a story it must be written in the language of the time to be understood, with common analogies that the people of the time must be able to understand. So when the bible says "the Lord created earth in six days and rested on the seventh, that is mans assesment of time. Who knows what space in that time we are in right now. Again time means something only to us. You mentioned Adam and Eve. The begining of it all. For us anyway. Again, a concept of man. Adam and Eve again may be the "understandable" description of the begining of man for the time. Adam and Eve may actually be millions of what would be the human race. At the time the only real "science" the people knew was that a man and a woman make offspring. Therefore it all must have started with a man and a woman. I'm not out here to debunk the bible, but we now know that any race with that limited a gene pool would not survive very long, much less thrive as the human race has.
The bible is a book that I look to for spiritual and moral guidance. Probably not as often as I should, When doing so one must use the underlying lesson, but temper it with the knowledge of today. The same as the writings are tempered with the knowledge of when it was written.
Ok guys let it fly.
OK I would like to throw my 2 CENTS in if there are no objections. We Must remember that God is the author of time. When he made the next statement that was when time started. God said let there be light and there was light. God saw the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day and the darkness night. And there was evening, and there was morning- the first day. Now in my world this is a 24 hr period. If this statement is true and we live it everyday, can someone tell me when it changed. Mark, when it is said a day is...... Could it possibly be that the thousand yrs They are talking about is the wk that God has given for mankind to get it together. One day equals 1000 yr. 7000 yrs equals one wk. Think about the thousand yr reign of Jesus as King. the Day of rest after 6000 yrs of work. 1000 yrs of rest.
Hi Bruce,
There is a term that people do not like; it's called predetermination. Scripture states this issue quit clearly even though you or I or anyone else would never know which was which. The potter did make two kinds of vessels. Rom. 9: 20-23.
Hey Gail,
Forgive me Gail, , but I just don't know nor understand where you were going with this, could you please elaborate some on this post ?
Bruce //........ servant to King Jesus, God's Christ....God's Word
Predetermination simply says that, because God is outside time, He knew before who would accept Him and who would not. This in no way interferes with free choice. God knowing what choice we would make still means that we make the choice.
Greetings Diana,
That is exactly right, a person must choose because God desires a personal relationship and that must be by choice! He is not going to force anyone to Love Him nor trust in what He has done, is doing or will do. God is not a cosmic dictator who forces Himself on mankind, nor His ordinances, we either receive Him or we reject Him and His salvation plan, Jesus Christ and his finished work !!
very good post Diana....thank you
Bruce // servant to King Jesus............. God's doorway to His Kingdom, ; John 10: 9
OK I would like to throw my 2 CENTS in if there are no objections. We Must remember that God is the author of time. When he made the next statement that was when time started. God said let there be light and there was light. God saw the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day and the darkness night. And there was evening, and there was morning- the first day. Now in my world this is a 24 hr period. If this statement is true and we live it everyday, can someone tell me when it changed. Mark, when it is said a day is...... Could it possibly be that the thousand yrs They are talking about is the wk that God has given for mankind to get it together. One day equals 1000 yr. 7000 yrs equals one wk. Think about the thousand yr reign of Jesus as King. the Day of rest after 6000 yrs of work. 1000 yrs of rest.
Interesting Gail,but if we agree that God created all that is then your analysis of Gods meaning of night and day is pretty limited. Consider the fact that "only on earth" where "man perceives" night and day in 24 hour periods night is night and day is day. This is only because it is the only refrence that we have for the passage of time. For your analogy to be true you would have to consider that God only exists on earth.
Gail, I agree with you. I believe that the earth was created in 6 days. 6 x 24 = 144 hours.
We can have no idea how long Adam and Eve lived in the garden or how many children they had. I am guessing that it was in the hundreds at least and then those children had children and so on."
I don't think that's wise. Seems like we already know what happens when the gene pool gets limited. We end up with abnormalities, genetic defects, weakened immune systems and Democrats.
"I've heard the argument that the thought that Christ will come back soon because we've been on earth 6000 years - more or less - and I think that it just shows our strong desire for Him to return. But Jesus said that no man knows the hour of His return."
Well, then ask a woman, d'uh! "no man knows,..." - process of elimination. Since dogs can't talk, must be a woman that knows.
I have a question... and I guess I could just go read it for myself, but so much more fun to ask you all!
After God made Adam and Eve, is there anything in the Bible that says how long they were in the garden before they sinned?
If not, who knows, maybe they could have been there for thousands of years? Before they sinned they were never going to die, so they could have been there for a really long time.
Although I feel like I'm forgetting something ... but there seems there may be a gap there. You know the Bible doesn't really go into a lot of detail. I mean suddenly there are a lot of people on earth and the Bible never talked about that.
You know, when Cain kills Able. God sends him out but puts protection on him so no one will kill him. It seems there are already cities full of people. But the Bible doesn't talk about any of that, how they got there or how long it took, or when exactly it happened. Right?
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Greetings Jonathan,
That is a very good question, one that has plagued the mind of man since God gave us His revelation; just how long was Adam & Eve in the garden before God had to cast them out because of their disobedience (sin & defiance) ? Another question, one you may have even pondered, is, how long was Adam in the garden without Eve ?
Before going on with this, I do have to point out a very important truth about the understanding of God's Word. Let us take a look at a passage of scripture first, which talks about the understand of God's Word. 1 Corinthians 2:14 ,"But the natural man ( the un-regenerated person...lost), receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" Those who have not surrendered to the gospel of God, that is complete faith and trust in the finished work of Jesus, on the cross and up out of his grave alive, do not have the Holy Spirit of God abiding within them. Thus those who are such, are not regenerated spiritually, quicken by the spirit, that is made alive unto God, and so are not able to understand the things contained in Holy Scripture ! Verse 10 of the same chapter, " But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" . It is the work of God the Holy Spirit, (one God 3 persons) which brings to the mind of the regenerated man the things of God. Also there are DEEP THINGS of God contained in Holy Scripture, things which are un-searchable to the natural man, the un-saved persons, things that "babes in Christ" could not handle, being "strong meat" (you don't give meat to babies), it is a metaphor !
So, with that said, with regards to Adam's time in the garden, you are correct Jonathan about it being uncertain just how long of time that was, before the fall, when God cast Adam & Eve out. However, there are some hints which, when one considers what God gives us in His Word apropos to the time Adam was there without Eve, but had sweet fellowhip with God at the beginning. Looking into Genesis 2, the second recording of the account of creation, from verse 19, we read this, " And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof".
Jonathan, and anyone else reading, listen, we are told here that God brought every living creature that He had created, cattle, birds, creeping things every flying thing, everything, unto Adam to see what he, Adam would name it, and what ever name Adam name it that was the name thereof. Folks, that is alot of creatures, and you can know this for sure, that Adam took his time, no doubt he considered some things about each and every indivisual creature, in every way, each time God brought yet another creature created to Adam, It was not that God brought another creature and Adam just blurted out a name, no no, not so, folks it took time....a long time, perhaps hundreds of years if not thousands of years. Just think of how many creature, (living animals, birds, ect....) the bible says ALL living things did Adam give names to... it just did not happen over night, it took a very very long time....AMEN !
Point being this, even though we are not given specifics on lenght of time form verse to verse , chapter to chapter everywhere in Holy Scripture, it does not mean we can not gain an understanding of such things. First of all, the Holy Spirit of God must exist in a person's life, ( by being "Born Again", regenerated ), also there must be discernment, studying, contemplating the thing of Scripture.
Now, reading these passages of scripture, can anyone see somthing else here about what we can learn about God's first man... Adam?
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anxiously awaiting your answers ?
Bruce //..................... servant to King Jesus........... God's second man !!!
