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Climate Gate - Yes, scientist act in their self in

Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 4:36:02 PM EST

I like exhaling CO2. My house plants love me for it. I think I will continue to do so...

You bring up a interesting conflict here Gerald... The EPA declares carbon dioxide (CO2) a dangerous pollutant that must be regulated, Carbon Sciences' CEO, Byron Elton, says, "... carbon dioxide presents a harmful climate problem..." But wait... Plants need CO2 to live, and plants expel O2 which we need to live, and trees and kelp are plants, and trees and kelp are like natures filters, they clean the air. So, the more CO2 the better; but The EPA declares carbon dioxide (CO2) a dangerous pollutant that must be regulated, Carbon Sciences' CEO, Byron Elton, says, "... carbon dioxide presents a harmful climate problem..."

NONE OF THIS CLIMATE CHANGE STUFF MAKES ANY SENSE!!!!!
Chris ...Just Chris
- 2953 posts
December 9, 2009 4:38:56 PM EST

The understatement of the century Todd.
Dirty Hippie
- 1068 posts
December 9, 2009 4:53:11 PM EST

Well. um. YES WE HAVE!!!!! And even the things we have and are changing can't be fixed unless we're gone. Do you want that to happen? You just don't have a clue whats actually happening do you?
Chris ...Just Chris
- 2953 posts
December 9, 2009 5:19:51 PM EST

Well um, How about a few examples.
Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 5:40:54 PM EST

Well. um. YES WE HAVE!!!!! And even the things we have and are changing can't be fixed unless we're gone. Do you want that to happen? You just don't have a clue whats actually happening do you?

DH what are you talking about? and for that matter are you sure you have a clue as to what is actually happening? Please tell me you are not still sobbing over this picture of a poor poor polar bear and her baby stranded (sniff, sniff) unable to cross the icy water and reach land. For Crying out loud man polar bears can swim!!!!! why is this a published work? in what world does anyone buy any of this! simple answer to all this is they don't want to fix the environment, they want you to keep pumping Billions of dollars into their pockets!
Gerald Butts
- 336 posts
December 9, 2009 5:44:10 PM EST

Todd, I had to go back and read that quote from Byron Elton. He went on to say,

"With the CO2-to-Fuel technology that we are developing, CO2 emissions can be recycled into a virtually unlimited supply of fuel." He calls it a "breakthrough technology". You mean these guys just discovered photosynthesis?

Amazing! absolutely amazing. I guess he is going to patent photosynthesis and make millions. I can't stand it anymore. Has the whole world gone nuts?! I would give the guy credit for creating a technology that converts CO2 to fuel that machines can use. But this guy talks like he discovered the concept. ITS THE ECOSYSTEM !!! That's the way it works !!! We were taught that in grade school. Where was this guy? Can I scream now?...
Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 5:49:57 PM EST

I hear ya Gerald. You gotta love that the "environmentalists" don't know the basics of how the environment works, yet they claim humans are causing climate change and they know how to fix it. madness.
Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 5:54:40 PM EST

actually we should archive this so 50 years from now when this technology is common place we can all look back and laugh when the crazies are screaming "We are consuming too much CO2! we need to burn more fossil fuels! all the plants will die with in a gazillion years at this rate! Danger Will Robinson! DANGER!!"
Mark Moorman
- 1029 posts
December 9, 2009 6:03:45 PM EST

Allow me to give you just one, Chris.....

Rachel Carson's Ecological Genocide By: Lisa Makson
FrontPageMagazine.com | Thursday, July 31, 2003

A pandemic is slaughtering millions, mostly children and pregnant women -- one child every 15 seconds; 3 million people annually; and over 100 million people since 1972 --but there are no protesters clogging the streets or media stories about this tragedy. These deaths can be laid at the doorstep of author Rachel's Carson. Her1962 bestselling book Silent Spring detailed the alleged "dangers" of the pesticide DDT, which had practically eliminated malaria. Within ten years, the environmentalist movement had convinced the powers that be to outlaw DDT. Denied the use of this cheap, safe and effective pesticide, millions of people -- mostly poor Africans -- have died due to the environmentalist dogma propounded by Carson's book. Her coterie of admirers at the U.N. and environmental groups such as Greenpeace, the Sierra Club, the World Wildlife Fund and the Environmental Defense Fund have managed to bring malaria and typhus back to sub-Saharan Africa with a vengeance......

Read full article here; http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=16987

Now, I know there are many scientists that are 'SOLD' on the fact that Human Beings and their amenities are responsible for the creation of Warming of the Climate....which they conclude 'COULD' result in 'THE END OF THE WORLD AS WE KNOW IT'...I have no interest in suggesting that we jail or force all of them into exile. I'm sure many of them are genuinely concerned. HOWEVER, much like the 'continuing' episode in history, like above, regarding Rachel Carson....sometimes, "the greater good, being implemented by bad science and, well, LIES" can lead to 100'S OF MILLIONS OF DEATHS!

Before you simply dismiss my distinction......Let's just face some basic FACTS, simple ones, pertaining to the current 'Trend' or 'Conclusion' of Climate Change.

1. NO WAY ON EARTH someone can explain to me that "this science is settled".....simply by looking at the way this 'CLIMATE' discussion has changed, since the 70's, alone, ....we SHOULD BE skeptical!
2. The simple FACT that debate has been all but SHUT DOWN by a group of people who have LARGELY based their data on a 'model' that is, at the very least, in need of a GREAT DEAL of investigation, in the name of science....that leads me to the conclusion that the 'debate IS NOT over'...especially since it never really HAPPENED!
3. Expounding on #2, 30 THOUSAND Scientists(NONE of them politicians or honorary PHd's......well, they argue that THEY'VE ALL BEEN SHUT OUT, slandered, excluded from providing contrary scientific evidence to peer review panels....ETC., ETC., ETC. Again, this, in and of itself, SHOULD MAKE US SKEPTICAL!

Lastly, I'd like to point out that, not only does Rachel Carson's ECOLOGICAL GENOCIDE have something to do with this, it should be a reminder as to what happens when 'Political partners with Science', then STEAMROLLS through with an agenda/idea, WITHOUT unanymous scientific conclusion being come to by EXTREMELY objective and open debate!

WHAT BLIND FOLLOWERS of this are failing to acknowledge is that, if this 'PLAN' does what many people think it will.....they may very well cause an economic collapse that could directly result in the starving to death, death by disease and MANY other hardships related to poverty that would make 1/10th of one degree in 10 years LOOK LIKE THE BEST CHRISTMAS PRESENT THE WORLD HAS EVER SEEN!

My point? PLEASE, before you decide to make your commitment to this 'movement, due to , "This side seems to be so sure and I 'feel like they careeeeeee'", let's do what HONEST SCIENCE has always done, throughout history......ENCOURAGE HONEST, MULTI-FACETED DEBATE, COMPARISON, ANALYSIS....throwing out the FAILED MODELS, then DEMAND that they allow this debate, until it can be PROVEN to us, without a reasonable doubt, ......So that we might not be SCREWED OVER, YET AGAIN, due to a 'mistake' or for the sake of an 'agenda's desires'! PLEASE?
Mark Moorman
- 1029 posts
December 9, 2009 6:11:45 PM EST

Todd,

Polar bears, since 1977, have increased in numbers BY 5 TIMES!....From 5 thousand to 25,000.... The POLAR ICE THEY 'DEPEND ON'??? Hasn't decreased ONE OUNCE! .........Keep this in mind, and then note; What is the amount that C02 has increased since that time? 5 TIMES!

Polar bears increase in number......it gets them on the endangered species list.

Ice caps are proven to NOT have decreased, in spite of the increase in C02 output? .....THE EPA CALLS IT A CRISIS, CIRCUMVENTS OUR GOVERNMENT PROCESS AND totally denies that there has been INSUFFICIENT DEBATE! "DO THIS OR ELSE, ...WE GOT MONEY TO MOVE AROUND!"

THE LIST IS ENDLESS....and MILLIONS of people are not only sitting by and saying, "well, what can I do to stop them?"...but WORSE, people who blindly follow them are given a voice, while the rest of us who simply want intelligible answers are SHUT OUT! This is fascism, people, PLAIN AND SIMPLE! If you don't think so, go look up the definition, RIGHT?
Dirty Hippie
- 1068 posts
December 9, 2009 6:16:37 PM EST

You're right mark, its not settled. But many other things are. We destroy ecosystems and rearrange mountains to strip them of resources. We burn rain forests, we destroy reefs, we over-fish, we pollute the waters surrounding our industrial centers to the point that we are actually slowly changing the DNA of the fish and crustaceans there. All of this is directly related to things we do. When we kill of a species because we've destroyed its ecosystem, thats not getting undone with or without us. Thats it. And at this rate nothings going to change unless we're gone.
Dirty Hippie
- 1068 posts
December 9, 2009 6:18:20 PM EST

Actually polar bears are adapting relatively well considering how fast their environment's changing. They've been seen a lot more in the northern end of Canada. Still sucks that so many are drowning though. They can't swim forever.
Mark Moorman
- 1029 posts
December 9, 2009 6:33:54 PM EST

I don't agree, DH,

While I agree with much of what you've mentioned.... you might not want to hear that, WE HAVE done much to reverse this, almost solely through the FREE MARKET, demanding that we turn the corner, etc. Know what some of the worst devastation to the rain forest has been? COCAINE PLANTATIONS! Know who is largely responsible for the cut corners with big business, allowances for pollutants for some, but not for others, etc., etc., etc. ? LARGELY? the EPA!

DH, I'm NOT EVEN suggesting that we've not done some stupid things, that we've nothing to fix, ..."let it fix itself"....but BY OURSELVES, without GIGANTIC mandates and programs of 'CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL'......we CAN continue to improve things. I mean, it's just too much to handle anymore, DH, when I study the very same alarmists, reporting numbers that we are already half way to the 'Safe C02' model in the US....it's been going down, CONSISTENTLY, since the 'Pollution' dilemma was presented to us. Can more individuals do more? SURE, but ignoring the COUNTLESS examples that suggest, "Humans are really responsible for around 4-6% of the warming of the Planet...." that Cattle and Volcanic Activity is responsible for HUGE amounts of the C02 and other greenhouse Gases in the atmosphere...ignoring that to implement this, WE MIGHT bring down the temp 1 degree in DECADES....if we all but shut down EVERYTHING, including Air Travel, Animal consumption, Auto use, industry?????? THIS IS NOT a 'good deal' for human kind, DH..and we can improve things on this planet without the 'WORLD GOVERNMENT' taking over every aspect of our lives.

While I can't guarantee that you'll change your mind, once they're 'PLAN' starts to effect you, adversely........I CAN all but guarantee that 90% of the planet who suffers as a result of it......THEY WILL REVOLT! Look at what's happening, already, in many third world countries. THEY'RE NOT HAVING THIS, DH....and if you believe, for one minute, that China will do 1 TENTH of what we've done over the last 30 years....well, I don't know what to say. China, Hippie, has been CAUGHT, RED HANDED, in many coal schemes since the UN's glorious IPCC has been up and running. They simply open totally defunct and empty coal mines, making them appear to be in production, then call the MORONS at the IPCC, and get PAID, HIPPIE, to shut down said mine.

Let's get rid of the CORRUPTION, WITHIN, before we even think of allowing these people to take over THE WORLD, .....know what I mean?

Let's push for incentives for some of these companies to 'clean it up', instead of forcing them to move to India or Mexico,....where they can do MUCH WORSE.. know what I mean?
Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 6:35:40 PM EST

Seriously DH? are you kidding Can't swim forever? how did they get into the water? do you think huge chunks of ice miles across are just vaporizing! POOF! poor drowning polar bear. Oh and by the way they have evolved to be naturally buoyant so if they are tired they just float, and their fur is water proof so it keeps their skin dry. The wetness actually insulates them, trapping their body heat in, so don't even start.

Next lets talk about this whole changing Fish DNA idea. I thought that evolution stuff took millions of years? last I heard humans hadn't been around for millions of years, and we've only been polluting since the industrial revolution about a hundred years. Have you been just running a muck around here the past few months without me here to keep you inline? LOL
Mark Moorman
- 1029 posts
December 9, 2009 6:38:11 PM EST

Hippie, there is SOLID proof that their 'environment' data has been manipulated or STRAIGHT OUT LIED ABOUT, for years.....yet they push on with their agenda, anyhow, denying that the SOLID DATA means they should rethink their 'geographic OOOPSIE'S" ....IT'S SHAMEFUL, Hippie...and my point is very clear, AS USUAL....these people are going to do MORE HARM than GOOD! They always have, they always will. EPA? Good Lord, Hippie...these people are SO CORRUPT, we've got to reign them in, not let them TAKE OVER OUR FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, .....no matter what you're ideology is.
Dirty Hippie
- 1068 posts
December 9, 2009 7:08:55 PM EST

All of it? Its all a lie? Everything? You know the EPA has no money right? My dad was lucky not to lose his job under bush. Its true a lot of people are corrupt, but do you really think thats all there is here? And by the way, cows produce methane. Im not calling for halting industry, or travel, or any of the other things you mentioned. Because we can still have them and make them more efficient. Theres another thread that seems to be asking why our leaders don't lead by example. WE are the country that is looked to for the example. We have to start it. As for the Cocaine plantations, that leads directly back to us. And yes, to big business. Coke is the largest legal importer of cocaine in the world.

And Todd- FOREVER! You don't even start. Evolution takes millions of years. The unnatural altering of DNA does not. You know where i learn this stuff? In the most basic of basic science classes at school. Not advanced concepts.
Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 7:26:28 PM EST

the same school that teaches Evolution and Climate change are undisputed fact? the same school system that taught me we were causing global cooling? so we are such GODs that we can do in only a few years what it takes nature millions of years to do! My friends I now introduce you to the religion of the Left, where Man himself is GOD
Dirty Hippie
- 1068 posts
December 9, 2009 7:29:50 PM EST

Give them some credit. My teachers a geologist who works with the EPA. He's very skeptical about global warming, but also very much aware of everything else going on. Sooo yea, not that school. Doesn't seem like you went to college, so no, not that school system either. If by God you mean the ability to change things, yessir we are.
Todd Kalivoda
- 617 posts
December 9, 2009 7:46:44 PM EST

explain this to me, how are we changing Fish DNA? are we plucking fish from the sea and using our GOD-LIKE Powers over them to forever alter their DNA? or is the introduction of certain substances into the ecosystem causing a evolutionary reaction that results in a mutation of the DNA of the fish. assuming you believe it is the latter explain to me what part of that is contrary to the laws of nature.
Olli M
- 372 posts
December 9, 2009 7:47:18 PM EST

Todd the same school doesn't teach evolution and climate change. The climate change thing is a political issue that great many evolutionists also disagree with (Prof. Ian Plimer being a good example), and popularized by the media and politicians rather than peer- reviewed science.

While evolution isn't in question by mainstream science (0.15% of scientists in life science branches in USA, even less elsewhere believe in creationism), climate change is widely debated and questioned by prominent scientists and driven and distorted by media. The two shouldn't be put in the same category; they are completely separate.

Also, the "same school" is not a very strong argument. While you might not agree with evolution, that "same school" does teach things you (presumably) do agree with such as Newton's mechanics or quantum theory, if you want to be able to understand or take an advantage of manipulating their subjects.