Evolution

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Evolution

Jonathan Cousar
- Internet Czar
- 2581 posts
September 23, 2009 8:46:52 PM EDT

We started a conversation in another topic and it led to evolution. So I'm starting this topic so we can talk about here.

For all you Christians here who believe God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it - I'm one of you. But please... I ask you... treat those who may disagree with respect. There are other Christians who believe in evolution and I personally would like to hear their reasons. There are a lot of people here whose intelligence I respect but who disagree with me (and a lot of us) on this issue, but I would like to hear their views on it. There's no need to pounce on them or yell at them - let's just talk and see if we can all learn something!

To get the conversation started I'll repost a question that was asked in the other topic, which reflects my own questions. David Lee asked:

"Olli, I am just like Jonathan in the fact Im not gonna say you're not a Christian because you believe in evolution. I disagree with it but that doesn't mean I'm right. Lord knows I've been wrong before lol

You are a really smart guy and Im hoping you have an answer for my questions about evolution. My first problem is there is no adequate explanation for the origin of life from dead chemicals. Even the simplest life form is tremendously complex.

And the fossil record, our only documentation of whether evolution actually occurred in the past, lacks any transitional forms, and all types appear fully-formed when first present. The evidence that "pre-men" (ape-men) existed is dubious at best. So called pre-man fossils turn out to be those of apes, extinct apes, fully man, or historical frauds.

I'm lost man. Throw me a bone."
Michael Williams
- 161 posts
September 23, 2009 9:09:00 PM EDT

If Everything evolved,then what from?
John Martin
- 720 posts
September 23, 2009 10:13:39 PM EDT

I am a believer in Evolution, I also believe that God created every molecule and everything else, here on earth and in the entire Solar System and beyond, in short God Created-EVERYTHING.

I’ll continue with my reasoning, without using the word, Evolution. God created Earth , it took him six days, and on the seventh, he rested. How long is a day in God’s eyes?, the Absolute Ruler of all Eternity, how long is a day to Him? Man is the one who put a time-span on the length of a day. The Earth is near 4.5 Billion Years old. There is some discussion as to the exact age, I quote:
~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Earth was 4.5 billion years old. Not 6000 years. Not 6 million
years. But 4.5 billion. That’s billion with a ‘b’.
What complicates things for the uranium-lead method
is that non-radiogenic lead 204, 206, 207 and 208 also
exist naturally, and scientists are not sure what ratios of
non-radiogenic to radiogenic lead were early in the moon’s history. ...
The problem of how much lead was around to begin with still remains. ...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
No Doubt, the Earth is REALLY old. It started as a Molten ball of Lava, and gradually cooled, and developed an atmosphere (conflicting science on the mechanics of this, but it too was part of God’s plan), this whole cooling process took Millions of years. Millions of years is but a blink of the eye, in Gods time. The Earth slowly "Changed", "Developed", into a World that could support life. That was Gods Will, and He made it happen, according to His design and Plan.

MAN: God Willed there to man on his New World. God then planted the seed, (not the same as planting a corn seed in the ground), God "planted the seed of mankind, whatever the seed was like,, we’ll never know.Maybe we are not required to know. Man grew, constantly changing, little by little, Developing, over Millions of Years into exactly what He designed and Planned., Man was created in His Image. Adam and Eve, were the Mature result of the seed God planted, estimates, are the Year 4004 BC. Man is not the descendent of Monkeys, or some slime, that crawled out of the Ocean. Monkeys are the descendants of Monkeys, and Slime is the descendants of Slime. Man is a result of the seed, placed on the Earth" to grow into God’s Image.

Everything in Nature starts with a "seed". The seed looks nothing like the Mature product.

Mathematical impossibility?-You Bet. It’s God’s plan, it was not happenstance!!
Hubble Telescope, has seen Thousands of planets, and checked them with every imaginable scientific instruments, searching for a world with the same Life giving conditions, as we have here on Earth. None have been found to have an exact match. God chose Earth for Mankind.

In Simpler terms, consider you are driving your car from Los Angeles, California, heading for Your friend house in upper New York. You start your trip with no road map, read no signs along the way, nor ask for directions, what are the chances that you will get there? Slim, or at least doubtful. God had a road map, a exact plan, for his Creations called Earth and Man.

You see, we agree, God Created man in his image, and the heavens above.

There is one more quote I have from the "Monkey Trials", in 1925 (25?)
….William Jennings Bryan notably remarked "I do not think about the things
I don’t think about."
Clarence Darrow responded "Do you think about things that you do
think about?"
John Martin
- 720 posts
September 23, 2009 10:21:46 PM EDT
Deleted Member
September 23, 2009 11:00:19 PM EDT

You don't belive the old testsament? I don't understand, how you can believe parts but exclude Genisis altogether. As far as the moth goes that's just as simple as adapting to your inviroment God blessed most things with this ability.Please tell me your not basing your age of the begining of our universe by carbon dating that has been proven flawed many times. Your taking a scientist word over The Lords Word. The the seed was dust and there was no evolving about it, if any thing were're devolving.
Mike Henning
- 371 posts
September 23, 2009 11:12:03 PM EDT

Read the book "language of god". it was written by an evangelical and is pretty interesting.

long story short: evolution as a means of intelligent design, since the world is indeed older than 4000 years.
Dave Stanbrough
- 31 posts
September 24, 2009 12:18:33 AM EDT

Here's a different point of view. I'll preface it by saying that our vision is flawed by our experience. Because there is birth and death in everything we see, we think there must be a beginning and end to all things. So we struggle to comprehend the beginning of the earth. The beginning of the earth was when God planned it.

I don't think even God can create something from nothing. I think He is an Eternal being, as scripture says. He has no beginning of days or end of years. So... what I'm saying is the materials God used to make the earth could have been really old. Maybe he threw dinosaur bones in there too, because he has a sense of humor, and wanted to see what we'd do with them. How creative we would be. What we would spend our energy on.

To me, it doesn't matter, one way or the other. My personal preference is to take the scripture at it's word, and not think that we know these things of ourselves, because clearly, we do not. You have to have been there, or have it shown you by God. Then you will know for sure. But speculation and listening to the ideas of others helps us gain wisdom, and knowledge, and I enjoy that.
Carrol Lyles
- 30 posts
September 24, 2009 1:34:34 AM EDT

Has anyone heard of Carbon 14 dating and how a group of scientists have said that it is strong evidence to prove that we actually have a young earth??

Here is an article on it at this website...very informative

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible
David Lee
- 692 posts
September 24, 2009 1:58:09 AM EDT

Olli, Bret and I were having a private convo so you wouldn't get upset Jon but... we actually agreed it was kind of a dead convo since no one was gonna prove the other wrong haha

But... Aiko, its funny you mention this because I was talking to Olli about it.

It's a stretch... but is it possible? Aiko, what you are talking about is known as the "theistic evolution". Some Christians believe it, but most don't because the Bible teaches us that God made all of the animals all at once and that He made man from the elements of the earth.

It talks about dinosaurs in the bible. Does it ever say that word? Nope. But the word "dragon" appears 21 times in the Old Testament alone. There goes that theory lol

All Im saying is that science looks for the proof of something. God tells us to have faith. The definition of faith is the belief in something without proof. Evolution tries to explain things... it takes the faith right out of the equation. You dont need faith anymore because we have "facts". Sounds good right?

Well "proven facts" are disproven and shown to be false on a daily basis! Just becareful you dont put your faith in science more than you are in God. Science is something of man.... science can be wrong. God is never wrong.
Carrol Lyles
- 30 posts
September 24, 2009 2:06:09 AM EDT

You're right David, in the Book of Job, dragons are mentioned as well as "giant leviathon"...dinosaur is just the modern word for them.
David Lee
- 692 posts
September 24, 2009 2:14:34 AM EDT

It sure does Carrol. It also mentions them in Psalms. "You shall tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shall you trample under feet" (Psalm 91:13).

From the context it is clearly speaking about a real creature that it would be impressive and intimidating to step on!

Jeremiah 51:34 tells, "he has swallowed me up like a dragon..." which brings to mind the way many carnivorous reptiles swallow their prey whole.

Both dragons of the sea (Psalm 74:13) and field (Isaiah 43:20) are mentioned.

Genesis 1:21 can best be translated: "And God created great sea monsters..." One such sea monster became sufficiently well-known to the ancients to be given the special name "Rahab" (Isaiah 51:9).

And the prophet Ezekiel likens Pharaoh to a sea monster that invaded the Nile river and stirred up the mud (32:2). The Hebrew word, "Tannin," is from the root meaning "to extend."

The language conjures up an image of a long-necked plesiosaur-like creature paddling up the river and stirring up mud from the Nile delta with its flippers. Just such a creature is depicted by the ancient Egyptians who may have netted one just as Ezekiel describes in verse 3.
Deleted Member
September 24, 2009 6:39:31 AM EDT

God just gave us a very small outline of what he is capable of in The Bible. We can't even understand how he could know the outcome of the world before it ever was created by no more than mere words from his mouth or where He ( God ) came from? Why should he have to explain anything to us, all we deserver from the Lord is death, the wages of sin are death right. I have 3 boys and just to try to comprehend sending one to suffer a horrible death for a world wich most would turn their back on anyway. That is the love of a Father that knows what is best for his children. God is good!
John Martin
- 720 posts
September 24, 2009 7:28:02 AM EDT

All, good points, some of which support both sides, depending on your pre-conceived opinion. Subject history-this subject was brought up many weeks ago, I found in my FT research, but the most recent histor:-, Ollie first mentioned the "E" word, in the …New Age Church? Forum, Jonathan responded next, and in the body of his text, Quote Jonathan in his reply: " This discussion though is about the dangers for Christians in accepting the teachigns from other religions." Jonathan didn’t want the discussion in that Forum, Two other replied after that, before….!!

One thing that keeps coming up, is the "translation" of different words. That is what we are dealing with -not only translation, but also words that can actually define the visions and thoughts of the time. Example lies in the posts above about what the Dragon means.

Yes there are downfalls to the method of dating, I neglected to mention the Carbon 14 method. I don’t believe that Adam and Eve attained Maturity at 4004 BC, I think they missed the date on them, and the time was much further back than that.

The problem we all have, is attempting to understand, the Mechanics of things, in this case Creation itself. Too much to comprehend, to actually wrap our minds around, like the concept that space, the Universe goes on forever, I can’t fathom that. I believe it , but to not have an end…it’s too much. We get hung up on words and their definitions, we as a species, want to understand, to reason. That’s what makes us the King of the Jungle, (plus having a thumb).

I am the type who needs to know Why. Like, when you are driving down the Interstate Hwy, at 65 mph, the speed changes to 75, and the first 75mph sign is bigger than the 65mph sign. That’s so you can see it from a greater distance. But the New speed limit of 75 mph doesn’t begin until, you are even with the sign. Why make the first sign bigger than the 65mph sign if the speed doesn’t start until you reach the sign?

You see, I think about things, I think about-LOL There are a lot of things I don’t understand. What I do understand is that God is the Sole Creator of Everything, how that came to happen, is the question we will never have an answere to..
David Lee
- 692 posts
September 24, 2009 2:39:15 PM EDT

Plus having a thumb! haha

I agree Aiko. I dont think we'll ever actually know until we meet God and He says "this is what happened" lol

I told Olli in our email the same thing. I said when our time is up here and I see you in heaven we can ask God what really happened and have a good laugh about it lol
John Martin
- 720 posts
September 24, 2009 5:02:57 PM EDT

What a fine group we have here, we can agree to dis-agree....I still wonder about those speed limit signs though, thank goodness, I can block them out of my view, with my thumb- lol-Also, thumbs up, to All.
A Ruff Life
- 734 posts
September 24, 2009 5:07:21 PM EDT

What a fine group we have here, we can agree to dis-agree.

Lemme fix that, Aiko. You're all stupid. Well, I had to add some liberal content to the conversation. Now, carry on.
Diana Shifley
- 1047 posts
September 24, 2009 5:45:18 PM EDT

God created the plants, animals, and humans with maturity, so there is no reason why He could not have created a mature earth, also. This would cause everyone's opinion of the age of the earth irrelevant to how long it has been in existence.

When the Bible uses the phrase ' the evening and the morning', (as it does in Genesis) it is referring to a Jewish day which starts at sundown, thus referring to a 24-hour day.
John Martin
- 720 posts
September 24, 2009 5:57:35 PM EDT
Anthony Dolpies
- 319 posts
September 24, 2009 6:12:23 PM EDT

I believe in God, I also believe in evolution, I believe that God set this whole thing in motion, I really don't understand the argument that you can either believe one or the other.
Gerald Butts
- 336 posts
September 24, 2009 6:18:58 PM EDT

I’m bull headed enough to weigh in on this one. Because my belief has always been so far outside of the question. I certainly believe that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in it. I just believe our concept of time and space is not the same as God’s so the question is pretty much un-answerable. That is, did He create them all at once or did they evolve?

There is no time and space where God dwells, so the question has no meaning. But I am not going to totally cop out on an answer. Since evolution is the one way things APPEAR to happen from our human perspective, then in that sense it CAN be a valid theory. A working model for our limited human understanding. Just so long as we do not mistake it for the TRUTH. God’s truth can only be comprehended in the Spirit.

"But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." - John 4:23-24

This group does not need me to quote Scripture, but I could not resist. Guess I’m a Bible junkie.

Not sure if I gave a straight answer, but that is my best shot.